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RE: [soa-forum] Fw: [CAnet - news] SOA versus Web 2.0

To: "Service-Oriented Architecture CoP" <soa-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Service-Oriented Architecture CoP" <soa-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@xxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 21:23:44 -0400
Message-id: <74B14CBC0FEB9D4EB16969F09FA51F455101A2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Actually no oversight at all...I did not intend to bring SemWeb standards into my explanation. My explanation was focused on the interoperability that SOA-RM can bring between SOA-based systems, which is something that comes right out of the SOA-RM spec.
 
As to how the DRM benefited from the guidance in SOA-RM: Speaking only for myself, I was a major contributer to both initiatives, as both a member of the OASIS SOA-RM TC and the primary contractor supporting DHS (the lead agency) for the creation of DRM 2.0. You may note some cross-pollination between the two reference models (e.g. the definition of a reference model, what it is used for, etc.) which was partly due to ideas that flowed from SOA-RM to DRM 2.0, which were both being created at the same time.
 
Hope that helps,
Joe

 

From: soa-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Paul S Prueitt
Sent: Tue 5/9/2006 8:34 PM
To: Service-Oriented Architecture CoP
Subject: RE: [soa-forum] Fw: [CAnet - news] SOA versus Web 2.0

Joe,
 
With respects.  What I see in your note is that OASIS SOA-RM
 
 
can serve as a conceptual guidance for something called "by various people" Web 2.0.  However, not all of the SemWeb standards are anywhere close to the SOA RM.  You note does not seem to acknowledge this fact.  Perhaps this is an oversight?
 
In the SOA RM here are a set of very specific concepts developed in a simple fashion (38 pages ?) and some of these are concepts that seem to me, and others, to just be ignored in other standards.  You mention the federal data reference model. 
 
 
Many months ago, I questioned the definition of community that is in this data reference model, and the fact that the documents describing this reference model are not easy to grab hold of conceptually.  I still have that opinion. 
 
The OASIS SOA RM, on the other hand can be read and understood by any well meaning freshman college student.
 
The DRM on the other hand is not easily understood, and part of this is that there are authoritarian statement about how things are; when in fact there are good reasons to suggest that the "thing" is not as described.  I will take the term "relationship" to start with, section 3.4.   The DRM Abstract Model is useful but it is focused on computer data.  The sometimes vast differences between computer data and the real world is not addressed or even hinted at.  The SOA-RM consistently explicitly deals with this difference.  So in this precise sense, I would claim that (in this specific sense) the DRM has not guidance from the OASIS SOA RM. 
 
It is as if the SOA RM does not exist for the DRM Abstract Model.  The Topic Maps 1.0 standard was all about this difference, and the RDF folks beat up on TM until TM is now almost gone.  The issue of correspondence between real world and data is marginally addressed in the SOA RM because (it is stated) that the SOA RM is not about "only" the computer data world. 
 
If the US Federal Data Reference Model is mute on this issue, which I suggest that it is, then there is no benefit obtained by the DRM from the SOA RM.   I may be mistaken and would love to see the specifics where you , or anyone else, sees a correspondence between the DRM and the SOA RM.  How does, or how did, or how might the DRM benefit from the guidance in the SOA RM?
 
 
 
When one goes to understand what Web 2.0 !! is !!  (I think that the phrase "Web 2.0" is just a phase being used with out precisely defined meaning) one gets a particular (possible) architecture etc for doing something...   
 
 
What is this something, in your eyes?
 
Not two hundred pages of words in a URL, but in simple terms.  A few sentences or a paragraph.
 
If you would be so kind...
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: soa-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:soa-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Chiusano Joseph
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 4:30 PM
To: Service-Oriented Architecture CoP
Subject: RE: [soa-forum] Fw: [CAnet - news] SOA versus Web 2.0

I believe the OASIS SOA-RM can provide a foundation for Web 2.0's advancement because of Web 2.0's focus on collaboration. Such collaboration is facilitated by interoperability among multiple SOA implementations (meaning among the services that these implementations provide), and this interoperability can be facilitated by an enhanced ability to relate and compare multiple SOA implementations - and such an enhanced ability can be provided by the SOA Reference Model.
 
Joe
 
Joseph Chiusano
Associate
Booz Allen Hamilton
 
700 13th St. NW, Suite 1100
Washington, DC 20005
O: 202-508-6514 
C: 202-251-0731
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
 


From: soa-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:soa-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Paul S Prueitt
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 6:22 PM
To: Service-Oriented Architecture CoP
Subject: RE: [soa-forum] Fw: [CAnet - news] SOA versus Web 2.0

Is there something that one can directly compare W* or Web 2.0 or what ever (is W* sameAs Web 2.0)  to the OASIS SOA RM?
 
Joe, in my humble opinion, the links below have more information than one needs (information about the author(s) and about his/their opinions).
 
 
 
To the SOA CoP...
 
OASIS SOA RM is in my opinion complete adequate and sufficient for social transformations that I am hoping to help.
 
As has been mentioned, the "phenomenon" of case based reasoning is vital to causing the types of complicated cascades that are needed in a new type of computing and communication .  Computers need these cases enumerated.  Web-ontology is doing this now days and doing it well, in a few cases.  Human communication needs choice points (BCM standard) and measurements to test when the cases are not adequate in a particular situation. 
 
 
What most miss is that human reasoning is constantly in touch with reality, what I and others (Aldo de Moor) call the pragmatic axis.
 
The OASIS SOA RM does not miss this, and yet most other standards do miss this - particularly (the judgment can be made) W3C standards.  (Show me one that does, and I will be very happy to review it.)  The reason why this is a RM and not an architecture is to correct architectures that have no or little reference capabilities to natural processes.  (Again, this means process models and really alignment to real temporal events.)  This is a call for a principled discussion if someone feels slighted by a slight critic of W3C. 
 
The issue is clarity of the standards, and fidelity to the natural processes that the standards should be helping us model and assist ourselves and others with "web services".  Yes?
 
This is where an alignment with the OASIS SOA-RM is necessary, because this RM is correct (in the context I am speaking) and because of the break through (conceptually) within the leadership (some of it) of the Federal CIO Council, in this context.  We feel that more than any other thing, other than an awareness of n-ary ontology and Ontology referential bases, this alignment to the OASIS RM has the greatest merit. 
 
Stakeholders will understand this alignment, but we need to demonstrate that we have mastered this RM and understand how to do web service architectures within the scope of the RM. 
 
In my mind, not having seen all standards, for me.....The SOA-RM, the FERA (Federated Enterprise Reference Architecture) and the following other standards complete a  * cover over the high level standards the federal government should adopt.
 
SOA-IM (Information Model)
SOA-CS (Collaborative Services)
BCM (Business Centric Methodology) adopted at OASIS in April 2006. 
 
ebXML (electronic business XML) strongly supported by SUN and reasonably good.
 
* by cover, I mean that all of the issues are taken care of at one level (in this case the high level cover is a conceptual cover). 
 
 
Paul Prueitt
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: soa-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:soa-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Chiusano Joseph
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:06 PM
To: Service-Oriented Architecture CoP
Subject: RE: [soa-forum] Fw: [CAnet - news] SOA versus Web 2.0

For those scratching their head wondering what Web 2.0 is, here are some good resources:
 

http://blogs.ittoolbox.com/eai/cto/archives/007200.asp (Web 2.0: The Web as the Global SOA")

http://webservices.sys-con.com/read/164532.htm (“Web 2.0 The Global SOA")

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1906053,00.asp ("Web 2.0 Label Lacks Meaning, Magic")

http://web2.wsj2.com/creating_open_service_apisthat_last_and_anyone_can_use.htm ("Creating Open Services That Last And Anyone Can Use")

 
Joe
 
Joseph Chiusano
Associate
Booz Allen Hamilton
 
700 13th St. NW, Suite 1100
Washington, DC 20005
O: 202-508-6514 
C: 202-251-0731
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
 


From: Chiusano Joseph
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 5:01 PM
To: 'Service-Oriented Architecture CoP'
Subject: RE: [soa-forum] Fw: [CAnet - news] SOA versus Web 2.0

Thanks Susan. Here is another excellent piece on this very topic from late last week, from SOA analyst Joe McKendrick:
 
 
Joe
 
Joseph Chiusano
Associate
Booz Allen Hamilton
 
700 13th St. NW, Suite 1100
Washington, DC 20005
O: 202-508-6514 
C: 202-251-0731
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
 


From: soa-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:soa-forum-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of susan.turnbull@xxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 4:58 PM
To: soa-forum@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [soa-forum] Fw: [CAnet - news] SOA versus Web 2.0


FYI -
I wasn't aware of consternation between SOA and Web 2.0.  I just think of open API mash-ups as SOA-lite.
Susan

Susan B. Turnbull
Senior Program Advisor
Office of Intergovernmental Solutions
Office of Citizen Services and Communications
US General Services Administration
p 202.501.6214
susan.turnbull@xxxxxxx
http://www.gsa.gov/intergov

----- Forwarded by Susan B. Turnbull/XCI/CO/GSA/GOV on 05/09/2006 04:55 PM -----

"Bill St.Arnaud" <bill.st.arnaud@xxxxxxxxxx>
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05/09/2006 03:28 PM
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For more information on this item please visit the CANARIE CA*net 4 Optical
Internet program web site at http://www.canarie.ca/canet4/library/list.html
-------------------------------------------

[Some excerpts from Jon Hagel's blog. Thanks to a contributor who wishes to
remain anonymous-- BSA]

http://edgeperspectives.typepad.com/edge_perspectives/2006/04/soa_versus_web
_.html

SOA Versus Web 2.0?

As I indicated in my previous posting, a cultural chasm separates these two
technology communities, despite the fact that they both rely heavily on the
same foundational standard - XML. The evangelists for SOA tend to dismiss
Web 2.0 technologies as light-weight "toys" not suitable for the "real" work
of enterprises.  The champions of Web 2.0 technologies, on the other hand,
make fun of the "bloated" standards and architectural drawings generated by
enterprise architects, skeptically asking whether SOAs will ever do real
work.

Both Web 2.0 and SOA technologies re-conceive software as services. Perhaps
even more importantly, they view services as platforms.  Rather than viewing
services as standalone offers designed to be consumed exactly as written,
both sets of technologies start with the vision that the role of any service
is ultimately to become the building block for even more services that will
be built on top of the original service.

Amazon provides an early, and very limited, example of this opportunity.  By
developing an affiliate program and offering a book buying service that can
be embedded into other web sites, Amazon has been able to significantly
expand its reach and create a much more robust platform for driving
e-commerce activity.

The growing appeal of Web 2.0 technologies in part stems from this hijacking
of SOAs.  Line executives within the enterprise are experiencing mounting
frustration over the escalating hype around SOAs, the growing spending over
SOA design initiatives and the relatively limited business impact achieved
by SOA deployments.  In contrast, Web 2.0 initiatives are leading to a
proliferation of mashups (one form of composition), as described by Dion
Hinchcliffe in "The Web 2.0 Mashup Ecosystem Ramps Up" and "Some Predictions
for the Coming 'Mashosphere' "


Does this mean SOAs are DOA? Not at all.  SOAs still provide a valuable
foundation to support the sustained relationships required for distributed
creation.  But these SOAs need to be deployed in a much more incremental and
pragmatic way.  Perhaps a little competition from Web 2.0 technologies will
help to break the logjam and force both IT departments and IT consultants to
adapt their culture and operations to growing business pressure for
accelerated impact and learning.

As JSB and I discuss in much more detail in The Only Sustainable Edge, the
convergence of SOAs, virtualization architectures and Web 2.0 social
software will drive the next wave of value creation within and across
enterprises.  The convergence will not unfold smoothly, as much of the
current debate confirms, but it will take place - there is too much at stake
and each of these technology arenas offers something distinctive in
supporting next generation business platforms.





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